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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am going to do a presentation/demonstration on how to make fermented feed at the next 4-H meeting. I read through most of this thread (http://www.chickenforum.com/f17/fermented-feeds-5523/), and combined a lot of the information that I found. Here is what I have so far:

Fermented Feed
Pros -
• Safe for any breed or age of poultry.
• It does not have any alcohol, because as the alcohol is being produced, it is being consumed at the same time.
• Improves overall health and digestion, resulting in better feathering and molt recovery and better laying rate. Some people have reported that the yolk size of the eggs also increases.
• Fermenting the feed helps the bird absorb more nutrients from the feed, leaving less nutrients in the droppings, which results in a better smelling coop with less flies.
• Improves immune resistance.
• Keeps for a long time without going bad.
• Saves you money!
Cons -
• None!
Step 1 -
• Fill a bucket part way with feed. You can use any kind of feed such as pellets, crumbles, or grains. You can also add vitamins or other supplements to the mix, as well.
Step 2 -
• Fill with water and mix until it comes to a thickness somewhere between pancake batter and cookie dough.
Step 3 -
• Let it sit for a couple of days, stirring two or three times per day. Do not seal the lid, or the gasses will build up inside.
Step 4 -
• Once the feed is strong-smelling and produces bubbles when stirred, it has been fermented and is ready to serve!

Anyone have anything to add or change? More Pros or Cons? Steps?

I also would like to add a section on the fermentation process. Can anyone explain it to me?

Thanks! Tell me how i'm doing so far!
 

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Cons
It's not for everyone
It required extra time
Equipment costs if you don't have buckets ect
Storage area
Smell (not everyone likes the smell of fermentation)
Not much reputable research done / or at least not easily found (meaning not blogs or personal opinions)
Fermented feed takes less energy to digest which lessens the birds efficiency in keeping warm in the winter
It's sloppy, so you can not use dry feeders or pvc tubing feeders.

These are just what I can think of for now. I would do some more research, there are many ways to ferment feed. No one persons way is perfect or right for everyone. I would also research the effects if the feed is done wrong. Can it kill birds if it crosses that fermented line into actually being bad/rotten . Do you need your container of fermented feed kept at certain temps before it ferments to far? What about in the winter, does the feed need to be indoors since it has liquid so you dont risk it freezing ? If so then a person needs a place indoors to keep it, where the smell wont affect them. Just my thoughts on the subject. I have tried FF and did not like it one bit.
 

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Here's some information for your presentation:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/x2184e/x2184e06.htm

http://www.ilri.org/InfoServ/Webpub/fulldocs/X5490E/X5490E0Y.HTM

http://ps.fass.org/content/82/4/603.abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19373724

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19373724

http://www.ajol.info/index.php/ajb/article/viewFile/60378/48610

http://www.cabi.org/animalscience/uploads/file/animalscience/additionalfiles/wpsaverona/10366.pdf

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00071660902736722?journalCode=cbps20#.Ul7Ys1NMGKI

And that's just the short list of the studies and information on this feeding method...compiled in less than 10 min. from a single Google search. The information is out there for those who are interested in finding out the details.

Cons~

Odor
Climate changes that dictate a need to keep FF at a temp that promotes good fermentation. (If done in bulk quantities, it keeps very well in weather that is at freezing and below freezing temps, though slower to metabolize)
Cannot be dispensed in continuous feeding type feeders.
Five minutes more time needed to replenish feed bucket on days when this is necessary...on other days, no more time is spent on feeding than if feeding dry feeds. Say, once a week, a person would spend 5 extra minutes.
Equipment changes that require minimal, if any, expense. Those already feeding in troughs need make little change. Buckets are often found free at local delis and restaurants.

Pros~

Increases protein usage by 12%(according to scientific studies)
Changes proteins and sugars to a form easily digested and utilized by a monogastric animal~amino acids.
Less feed waste due to more utilized at the point of digestion and also from feeding a wet feed.
Less feed consumed due to total nutrients increased in the feed~resulting in a decrease of total feed costs by nearly half.
Intestinal health and culture increases, intestinal villi lengthen thus increasing total absorption area and blood flow to the intestines.
Increased immune system function.
Increased parasite resistance.
Increased yolk size/weight.
Increased rate of lay.
Increased feather quality and growth, increased rate of molt recovery.
Increased scale, beak quality due to increased nutrient uptake(some have reported correction of cross beak after using FF).
Less undigested matter in the feces~resulting in less nitrogen in manure, less smell of the fecal matter, less attractant for flies, less ammonia production as there is less break down needed of waste material.
Less water consumption due to feeding wet feeds.
Less incidence of pasty butt in young chicks, faster weight gains, faster feathering of young chicks as well.
Thicker egg shells.
Less feed waste to rodent predation.
No changes in winter warmth issues as core temps do not depend on rates of digestion of feed~no more than it does for any other animal or human.
Increased mild flavor of eggs, removal of sulfur or "eggy" flavor.
Increased mild flavor of meat, removal of "gamey" flavor.
Increased overall health and appearance noted and reported with continuous use of FF.
Prebiotics and probiotics available in feed increase resistance to disease/illnesses such as coccidia, e.coli, salmonella, flagella, etc.

If I think of anything else, I'll let you know. :) For further information from others who have tried it and found all the pros above to be anecdotal-ly correct, try reading here: http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/644300/fermenting-feed-for-meat-birds

And here: http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/645057/fermented-feeds-anyone-using-them
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Oh my goodness! Well, it looks like I have a lot of reading to do...

Thanks for the info! I'll go through some of those links and add more info to my presentation, then i'll post an updated one.
 

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Good luck on your presentation! This is going to be awesome. You're going to have all of the info in one spot! I look forward to reading your finished presentation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Yup! I have a study hall, today (and no homework, yay!), so I can work on it then. I can't wait to compile all of this info into one presentation for all of the Internet (and my 4-H club) to see!!! XD

Anyways, I do have some time in a couple of hours that I can work on it some more.
 

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I read through all the links and noticed none are conducted here in the US. Unless these studies have been done to duplicate our conditions, available feed, and strains of poultry you really can not compare what they found versus what could possibly be found here. It also needs to be noted the "type" of fermentation and the process used in the studies. There are many ways to ferment and with each way there is a possibility of doing it wrong, no matter how easy one person feels it is. I also found :

"Special mention should be made of the microbiological risk factors associated with fermented foods. The safety of fermented foods has been recently reviewed (Nout 1994). Cases of food-born infection, and intoxications due to microbial metabolites such as mycotoxins, ethyl carbamate, and biogenic amines have been reported in fermented foods. Major risk factors include the use of contaminated raw materials, lack of pasteurization, and use of poorly controlled fermentation conditions" http://www.fao.org/docrep/x2184e/x2184e06.htm

I am not trying to argue, I just would like to point out that with ANY way of doing things there will always be pros and cons. No one method is perfect and the solution for every every circumstance.

Also like I said before, equipment needed would be a con. One can not assume every person has access to "free" supplies. The supplies cost money, therefore would be a negative . Buckets, drill bit, drill, ect. All those cost money and you cant assume everyone has access.
 

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Yes...I believe both pros and cons were listed on the method. And, yes, with any study done on just about anything nowadays there will be studies done to contradict it. That's a given.

As for equipment, I'm thinking that, yes, if one is living in a primitive culture where receptacles cannot be easily manufactured or obtained, this most certainly would be an issue.

Drill bits are not necessary to fermentation, just water, feed and a deep enough receptacle for good moistening of the grains and most households in America can put their hands on something deep enough to ferment in...some use jars, some bowls, some simple buckets, plastic totes, trash cans, old crocks, plastic coffee cans, etc.

I'm thinking if you don't have a single empty receptacle in your home that is deep enough to ferment in, you probably can't afford to feed chickens in the first place, so that makes the affordability of a bucket or similar receptacle a non-issue.

Your arguments for the cons of the method, though seemingly valid, are very small compared to the benefits of the method and many using the method can attest to it...right here in the states.

Any method is going to have cons and that is a given, but I believe the OP asked for both pros and cons and you have only listed cons on a method you tried for a very short time. I understand you didn't like the method, but not having used it long enough to form a good opinion on any pros associated with the method would seem to make your arguments a bit one sided.
 

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It doesn't matter how small the cons are, its the point they are there. As for the buckets, just because I don't have an available bucket doesn't mean I cant afford my flock. It just means I don't have one available. Also whether or not someone has an empty container to use or not means nothing. A container is still a supply needed. If the person plans to use the two bucket methods with holes then yes they will need a drill bit or another tool to make the holes. Again it does not matter whether the tool is owned or not, it still is a supply. You can not make fermented feed with out a container of some sort. Whether you use a spoon, scoop, or your hands you are still using a tool to get the feed from the container to a feeder. Everything used is all still apart of the necessary equipment, therefore it still needs to be mentioned. When giving a proper presentation all supplies need to be listed no matter if one person owns, does not own them, or another person thinks that just because they have it all everyone else should automatically have it as well. The OP asked for opinions , I have merely given mine and the reasons as to why. She can not give a proper presentation if it is only one sided.

Also , I did not mention pros since she already had them listed. She did not have the cons listed so I decided to help. The point of the forum to so members can see all sides to a subject, she obviously read the posts with the positive aspects and needed help with the negative.
 

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Any method is going to have cons and that is a given, but I believe the OP asked for both pros and cons and you have only listed cons on a method you tried for a very short time. I understand you didn't like the method, but not having used it long enough to form a good opinion on any pros associated with the method would seem to make your arguments a bit one sided.
And that on its own is just a tad one sided. IMO

Sorry Bee, I'm also one that is not sold on fermented feed ... As I posted before (in a different thread) it didn't work well for us. (And to be honest)... I don't have any pros only cons.
 

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Of course you don't...neither of you tried it long enough to form any pros on the method. That's like test driving a car and saying you don't like it from one drive down the road. If you don't like it, you don't like it, but that doesn't prove it's a bad car...it's just not for you due to not being comfortable, not having driving ease, not looking good, etc.

To gain an informed opinion on anything~and particularly on nutritional methods of feeding~one would have to use it long enough to gauge the overall and long term affects of the method to see if the pros outweigh the cons. If you only use it long enough to form a few cons that have nothing to do with the goal of the method~saving on feed costs and improved nutritional performance of the feed~ you'll never get to experience the pros at all.

Now, if the goal of the method was to have sweet smelling feed and to not have to buy a bucket, then I'd say the cons listed would be worthy of consideration.

That is extremely one sided. It would be different if FF was something that worked immediately and you could then gauge the efficacy of it on your flocks in just a few weeks, but it simply doesn't work that way. As with anything one tries that has potential long range good, it takes some time and effort to study about the pros and cons of it.

It's easy to try something briefly and pronounce it as not worthy of the doing simply because one never really gave it a good try, but that opinion would not be the one I'd place any faith in if I were looking into the truth of a method that, by its very nature, requires some time to gauge if it is worthy or if it is not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I just want to point out - I did not make this thread for people to state whether they like FF or not, then argue about it. I made the thread to gain information for a presentation.

Ok, I adjusted it - added a "supplies needed" section and edited the steps. I think I will have the presentation on how to make the FF. I will have the pros and cons list handy in case they are interested, but not make it a main part of the presentation.

Suggestions for warnings?

Fermented Feed
Supplies Needed -
• Bucket.
• Feed (You can use any kind of feed such as pellets, crumbles, or grains).
• Water.
• Scoop or stick to stir the mixture.
• Feed dish or trough style feeder.
Optional -
• Non-Pasturized Apple Cider Vinegar.
• Vitamins or other supplements.

Steps -
• Fill a bucket part way with feed. You can also add vitamins or other supplements to the mix, as well.
• Fill with water and mix until it comes to a thickness somewhere between pancake batter and cookie dough. If you want to speed up the fermentation process, you can add a "glug" or two of Apple Cider Vinegar.
• Let it sit for a couple of days, stirring two or three times per day. Do not seal the lid, or the gasses will build up inside.
• Once the feed is strong-smelling and produces bubbles when stirred, it has been fermented and is ready to serve! Scoop the desired amount into a pan for easy feeding.

Pros and Cons
Pros -
• Safe for any breed or age of poultry.
• It does not have any alcohol, because as the alcohol is being produced, it is being consumed at the same time.
• Increased immune system function, parasite resistance, yolk size and weight, rate of lay, feather quality and growth, rate of molt recovery, scale and beak quality due to increased nutrient intake.
• Since fermenting the feed helps the bird absorb more nutrients from the feed, it leaves less nutrients in the droppings, which results in a better smelling coop with less flies.
• Keeps for a long time without going bad.
• The decreased feed intake saves you money!

Cons -
• It required extra time, but only about five minutes total per day.
• Equipment costs.
• Storage area.
• Smell (not everyone likes the smell of fermentation).
• Fermented feed takes less energy to digest which lessens the bird's efficiency in keeping warm in the winter.
• It's sloppy, so you can not use dry feeders or pvc tubing feeders.

Warnings
Warnings -
 

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I just want to point out - I did not make this thread for people to state whether they like FF or not, then argue about it. I made the thread to gain information for a presentation.

Ok, I adjusted it - added a "supplies needed" section and edited the steps. I think I will have the presentation on how to make the FF. I will have the pros and cons list handy in case they are interested, but not make it a main part of the presentation.

Suggestions for warnings?

Fermented Feed
Supplies Needed -
• Bucket.
• Feed (You can use any kind of feed such as pellets, crumbles, or grains).
• Water.
• Scoop or stick to stir the mixture.
• Feed dish or trough style feeder.
Optional -
• Non-Pasturized Apple Cider Vinegar.
• Vitamins or other supplements.

Steps -
• Fill a bucket part way with feed. You can also add vitamins or other supplements to the mix, as well.
• Fill with water and mix until it comes to a thickness somewhere between pancake batter and cookie dough. If you want to speed up the fermentation process, you can add a "glug" or two of Apple Cider Vinegar.
• Let it sit for a couple of days, stirring two or three times per day. Do not seal the lid, or the gasses will build up inside.
• Once the feed is strong-smelling and produces bubbles when stirred, it has been fermented and is ready to serve! Scoop the desired amount into a pan for easy feeding.

Pros and Cons
Pros -
• Safe for any breed or age of poultry.
• It does not have any alcohol, because as the alcohol is being produced, it is being consumed at the same time.
• Increased immune system function, parasite resistance, yolk size and weight, rate of lay, feather quality and growth, rate of molt recovery, scale and beak quality due to increased nutrient intake.
• Since fermenting the feed helps the bird absorb more nutrients from the feed, it leaves less nutrients in the droppings, which results in a better smelling coop with less flies.
• Keeps for a long time without going bad.
• The decreased feed intake saves you money!

Cons -
• It required extra time, but only about five minutes total per day.
• Equipment costs.
• Storage area.
• Smell (not everyone likes the smell of fermentation).
• Fermented feed takes less energy to digest which lessens the bird's efficiency in keeping warm in the winter.
• It's sloppy, so you can not use dry feeders or pvc tubing feeders.

Warnings
Warnings -
You are correct... One more con (sorry) The number of wild critters it brought into my farm. Rats, (but that made the terrier and cats happy), ***** and opossum.

Best of luck with presentation.;)
 

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When filling the bucket initially, the water needs to be over the feed level as it will absorb it to then make the desired consistency. If you just add enough water to make it to a cookie dough consistency when you add the water, it will be a very dry mix when the water has absorbed and it may take longer to get all the grains fermented fully. The goal is to add enough water to allow for absorption in all grains but not have a soupy mix when it has absorbed all that it is going to absorb.

And there is no proof of feeds easier to digest causing lack of warmth to the animal in the winter months. Actually, the more blood that is diverted to digestion and the longer it takes to digest, the more blood is pulled from the peripheral areas of the body, resulting in less heat to the extremities and more heat in the core. So, if anything, foods easier to digest would cause more even warmth to the chicken than foods that take longer and more blood diversion to the digestive tract.

Same reason one can get muscle cramping if going swimming directly after a meal...blood is diverted towards digestion and leaves the muscles lacking in enough oxygen for sustained physical activity, causing cramping when ischemia occurs and lactic acid is built up in the muscle tissue.
 

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http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/poultry/pfs17.pdf
http://www2.ca.uky.edu/poultryprofi...tion_principles/Chapter7_air_temperature.html

Feed intake increases energy during digestion, which in turn increases body temp. Hence one of the reasons it is suggested to give corn before bed is to prolong digestion and give the extra calories and sugar. FF being already in a state that allows it to be digested quickly does not allow the extra digestion that would have otherwise been required , which lessens the increase in body temp or lessens the time in which the increase in body temp is achieved.

And with this I'm done. I did not come here to argue. I posted here to help the OP see both sides of FF.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I don't really need details - this is just a guide for me to use during my demonstration. I might even remove some info to make it easier. I'm actually going to physically demonstrate how to make it right then and there.

@Bee - like I said, this is a guide for me and only me to use. While I'm mixing it, I'll explain how it will continue to soak up the water.

I have been making the FF for a couple of weeks, so I know how to make it. I started the thread to see if I could get some more information about it in case I need to know that info. BTW, I'm sure that the presentation will be a lot better in real life than on paper.

Thanks for your help!
 

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I don't really need details - this is just a guide for me to use during my demonstration. I might even remove some info to make it easier. I'm actually going to physically demonstrate how to make it right then and there.

@Bee - like I said, this is a guide for me and only me to use. While I'm mixing it, I'll explain how it will continue to soak up the water.

I have been making the FF for a couple of weeks, so I know how to make it. I started the thread to see if I could get some more information about it in case I need to know that info. BTW, I'm sure that the presentation will be a lot better in real life than on paper.

Thanks for your help!
Sorry you only wanted details for yourself. When you said presentation/demonstration I would assume you would doing a presentation with a demo. As a 4-H leader myself when a members says they are doing a "presentation" that tells me they will be informing the group of the subject they are presenting. Which needs details. You are obviously doing a "Demonstration" only where you are showing how to do something. So in this case you only need to know how to do it and inform the club to do research to educate themselves on more details. Good luck on your Demo. Either way , it is always best to know all aspects of what your doing. Your not going to learn the negatives of anything on any subject when getting info from people who are supporters. Much like in politics, GMO's, Education, ect. If someone is only on one side of a subject you will never learn the truth about the other side without research and talking to a variety of people.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Sorry for asking for info and then telling you I don't need it - I remembered that it's just supposed to be notes for me to use, otherwise I will be standing there just reading off of the paper, and that won't get me a very good score when it comes to the contest part of it...

@Apyl - Thanks for the clarification on what is the difference between a presentation and a demonstration. I guess I knew in the back of my head, but I never knew what to call what I'm doing. I guess it's more of a demonstration than a presentation.

Even if I don't put it (whatever it is) on my note sheet, I might mention it. So thanks for all of the info, anyways!

I'll work on the final sheet today if I have time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Ok, here is my final draft! I added an intro "speech", and shortened the steps to be like notes (I kept the detailed notes in case I get nervous and forget things...). Like it?

Intro
Poultry has been one of my projects since I first joined 4-H, and I have learned many things when it comes to owning them. For example, if you are showing your birds, you might want better feathering and overall appearance. If you have your birds as just a laying flock, you might want thicker egg shells and bigger, brighter yolks. Maybe you just want a healthy flock that is more resistant to diseases and parasites. You might just want to save money or feed your flock something that keeps for a long time without spoiling. Today, I am going to teach you how to make Fermented Feed - a form of poultry food that does all of this and more!
Fermented Feed​
Supplies Needed -
• Bucket.
• Feed (You can use any kind of feed such as pellets, crumbles, or grains).
• Water.
• Scoop or stick to stir the mixture.
• Feed dish or trough style feeder.
Optional -
• Non-Pasteurized Apple Cider Vinegar (Non-Pasteurized so that the right cultures that are used to ferment are still in it).
• Vitamins or other supplements.

Quick Steps -
• Fill bucket with feed and vitamins (if you want).
• Fill with water and add a "glug" or two of ACV (if you want), and mix.
• Let it sit for a couple of days, stirring two or three times a day, don't seal lid.
• Once the feed looks and smells ready, scoop into a pan to feed.

Detailed Steps -
• Fill a bucket part way with feed. You can also add vitamins or other supplements to the mix, as well.
• Fill with water and mix until it comes to a thickness somewhere between pancake batter and cookie dough. Keep adding water and mixing until it stops soaking up the water.If you want to speed up the fermentation process, you can add a "glug" or two of Apple Cider Vinegar.
• Let it sit for a couple of days, stirring two or three times per day. Do not seal the lid, or the gasses will build up inside.
• Once the feed is strong-smelling and produces bubbles when stirred, it has been fermented and is ready to serve! Scoop the desired amount into a pan for easy feeding.
Pros and Cons​
Pros -
• Safe for any breed or age of poultry.
• Increased immune system function, parasite resistance, yolk size and weight, rate of lay, feather quality and growth, rate of molt recovery, scale and beak quality due to increased nutrient intake.
• Since fermenting the feed helps the bird absorb more nutrients from the feed, it leaves fewer nutrients in the droppings, which results in a better smelling coop with fewer flies.
• Keeps for a long time without going bad.
• Since the birds don't consume as much, the decreased feed intake saves you money!
Cons -
• It requires extra time, but only about five minutes total per day.
• Equipment costs.
• Storage area.
• Smell (not everyone likes the smell of fermentation).
• It's sloppy, so you can not use dry feeders or pvc tubing feeders.
• It can attract animals harmful to poultry such as rats, raccoons, and possums.
 
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