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-   -   parents with chick/Half brother and sisters. (http://www.chickenforum.com/f31/parents-chick-half-brother-sisters-2526/)

teddy 02-13-2013 06:03 AM

parents with chick/Half brother and sisters.
 
I'm getting mixed answers on these questions.

Can parents breed with chicks? (father to hens or (rooster with mother)

Can chicks breed with siblings from same hatch? (Parents was five hens one rooster)

I wonder what will hatch from these eggs. Google comes up with forum posts and this:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Should_a_rooster_breed_with_his_mother_hen

But I don't see how to stop them unless use a brooder. Or keep the roosters locked up until its time to breed.

Apyl 02-13-2013 12:32 PM

There is no issue with sibling breeding, but if you do parent to offspring dont do it for to many generations or you'll birds will become inbred and thats not desirable.

edited to add: As for your link, the last site I would trust is anything Wiki. Anyone no matter what their knowledge or experience can post articles and answers and they are not checked for accuracy.

teddy 02-13-2013 09:11 PM

Well working with this notion, I'll have to keep the siblings caged. I free range during daylight hours. Only have six old hens. Three new hens and daddy is already dancing around them. I figure something out.

BuckeyeChickens 02-15-2013 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teddy (Post 30752)
I'm getting mixed answers on these questions.

Can parents breed with chicks? (father to hens or (rooster with mother)

Can chicks breed with siblings from same hatch? (Parents was five hens one rooster)

But I don't see how to stop them unless use a brooder. Or keep the roosters locked up until its time to breed.

Teddy,

Yes, breeding Fathers to Daughters and Mothers to Sons is typically called "Line Breeding" and is a common practice in the world of poultry. Breeding siblings (brother to sister) is more risky and should be avoided in all but extreme cases! Yes, poultry breeders do breed brothers to sisters all the time and this considered "In-Breeding" and we use it when we have a very long line of birds that we know very well and can somewhat predict the outcome. When you use in-breeding (brother to sister) on birds you dont know much about their pedigree, like hatchery chicks, you are looking for trouble! The trouble comes because inbreeding can often bring more bad than good to surface in the offsping.

To prevent in breeding (brothers to sisters) you need to seperate them when they are old enough to breed, I usually do this at 10-12 weeks of age but some folks go as long as 20-22 weeks. Plus, it's a good idea to keep a few more males than you might need for breeding and I keep them in a "bull pen".....when they grow up together they generally get along fine (except gamefowl, thats anothr story)! Hope this helps, good luck. :)

Here is the old Felch Line Breeding chart that a lot of poultry breeder have used for over 150 years;

http://www.backyardchickens.com/foru...3115_chart.gif

BuckeyeChickens 02-15-2013 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apyl (Post 30793)
There is no issue with sibling breeding, but if you do parent to offspring dont do it for to many generations or you'll birds will become inbred and thats not desirable.

edited to add: As for your link, the last site I would trust is anything Wiki. Anyone no matter what their knowledge or experience can post articles and answers and they are not checked for accuracy.

Teddy, I completely agree with Apyl....Wiki is a TERRIBLE place for poultry knowledge! You can find tons of old poultry book by searching "google books" or try this website for more details on breeding and that Line Breeding chart I posted above;


http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/ppp/ppp6.html

teddy 02-15-2013 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuckeyeChickens (Post 31295)
Teddy,
Yes, breeding Fathers to Daughters and Mothers to Sons is typically called "Line Breeding" and is a common practice in the world of poultry."

This is in direct conflict from what Apyl posted. Just like I have been getting on internet searches. One place parents to off spring is inline and other places it is inbreeding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuckeyeChickens (Post 31295)
"Breeding siblings (brother to sister) is more risky and should be avoided in all but extreme cases!"

This to is in conflict. Now I have to do more searching. Just a common flock the hen hatches the eggs and the siblings grow up and start mating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuckeyeChickens (Post 31295)
Yes, poultry breeders do breed brothers to sisters all the time and this considered "In-Breeding" and we use it when we have a very long line of birds that we know very well and can somewhat predict the outcome.

I take it your a breeder. Help me with this. I started out with 6 chicks (Buff Orpington) from one hatchery (Lebanon MO). Very healthy Rooster, hens did not do so good. But I got hens from a different hatchery (Unknown). They were in a bin called easter eggs. Four of these hens are very strong egg layers.

So the Buff mated them and I hatched there eggs. Very easy to tell the eggs from these hens. Large eggs and all same shade of brown. Six eggs in and Three roosters out and 3 hens. I was going to let these birds breed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuckeyeChickens (Post 31295)
When you use in-breeding (brother to sister) on birds you don't know much about their pedigree, like hatchery chicks, you are looking for trouble!

Would not I have introduced new blood from the statement above?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuckeyeChickens (Post 31295)
The trouble comes because inbreeding can often bring more bad than good to surface in the offspring.

It just seems to me that hatchery's just let the flock breed with what ever parent to sibling, sibling to sibling. In a small controlled environment like I have very few birds it should be easer to tell inline from inbreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuckeyeChickens (Post 31295)
To prevent in breeding (brothers to sisters) you need to separate them when they are old enough to breed, I usually do this at 10-12 weeks of age but some folks go as long as 20-22 weeks. Plus, it's a good idea to keep a few more males than you might need for breeding and I keep them in a "bull pen".....when they grow up together they generally get along fine (except game fowl, thats another story)! Hope this helps, good luck. :)

Now this makes me wonder. My hens did not start laying eggs until eight months. I thought the egg has to be re-fertilized every egg.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuckeyeChickens (Post 31295)
Here is the old Felch Line Breeding chart that a lot of poultry breeder have used for over 150 years;

Sorry makes no scene to me. I know what male and female are but 2,3, and4 are what? The search goes on.

BuckeyeChickens 02-15-2013 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teddy (Post 31311)
I take it your a breeder. Help me with this. I started out with 6 chicks (Buff Orpington) from one hatchery (Lebanon MO). Very healthy Rooster, hens did not do so good. But I got hens from a different hatchery (Unknown). They were in a bin called easter eggs. Four of these hens are very strong egg layers.

So the Buff mated them and I hatched there eggs. Very easy to tell the eggs from these hens. Large eggs and all same shade of brown. Six eggs in and Three roosters out and 3 hens. I was going to let these birds breed.

Would not I have introduced new blood from the statement above?

It just seems to me that hatchery's just let the flock breed with what ever parent to sibling, sibling to sibling. In a small controlled environment like I have very few birds it should be easer to tell inline from inbreed.

Now this makes me wonder. My hens did not start laying eggs until eight months. I thought the egg has to be re-fertilized every egg.

Sorry makes no scene to me. I know what male and female are but 2,3, and4 are what? The search goes on.


I've been raising and breeding poultry and livestock for close to 15 years, prior to that I bred and raised a number of gun dogs (bird dogs) and had about 20 years experience with that but I'm not a professional....it's just been a hobby so to speak!!! I'll try to help you as much as I can but if you talk to 10 chicken breeders or read 10 poultry husbandry books you will get a variety of different answers! :D

As you have already noticed Apyl and I have differing views to some extent.....we do somewhat agree that brother sister mating can be done, I just said it should be used with extreme caution!

To answer your question about adding new blood, yes that is exactly what you did but you also created a cross (or hybrid) by mating two different breeds (Buff Orp to Easter Eggers)!

You are also correct, hatcheries let whatever, mate with whatever (if they breed any chickens at all....some hatcheries dont breed chickens they buy hatching eggs from a broker)! This is why hatchery stock is NOT generally "standard bred".....few hatcheries have someone knowledgeable about the American Poultry Associations "Standard of Perfection" nor do they use this to breed their flocks to a proper breed standard. Hatcheries flock mate and their stock declines in quality each year unless they frequently add outside blood.

The FELCH chart I posted can be used for many years before adding outside blood. The #2, #3, #4's are each year's offspring....let's look at #2 after you mate the BEST rooster to the BEST hen (we call this mating #1) you end up with males and females in #2....we take the BEST male from #2 and breed him back to Momma (#1) and we take one or two of the BEST pullets and mate them back to Poppa. We continue this process over with the #3 mating....we take the BEST male in #3 and mate him back to GrandMa and we take one or two of the BEST pullets and mate them back to Grandpa. This mating created offspring that have 3/4 of the original females blood....while #4 is doing the same thing but creating 3/4 of the Males blood. It's not rocket science, its just "Line breeding" and no where are we breeding brother to sister and like I said poultry breeders have used this method for 150+ years!!! :D

teddy 02-15-2013 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuckeyeChickens (Post 31365)
To answer your question about adding new blood, yes that is exactly what you did but you also created a cross (or hybrid) by mating two different breeds (Buff Orp to Easter Eggers)!

Thanks for bringing it in BuckeyeChickens! On what you said about helping me out. I'd like to ask another question.

I guess that it is not a true breed I'm after. But healthy chickens. Although One rooster and one hen from the hatch really stand out to me. You can take a look at them here: http://www.ttbfarm.com/ozarkproject.php

So my question is if I used them for mating #1 and start inline with their chicks like the chart. Would this be a healthy practice? Or should I start them as mating #2?

Just so you know they share the same father and not sure about mother but both have an easter egger mother.

I'm hoping that the egg production is as good as the easter egger's is. Then hatch some out before they stop laying so I have 10-12 hens laying eggs. Without buying hens every couple of years or so.

BuckeyeChickens 02-16-2013 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teddy (Post 31393)
Thanks for bringing it in BuckeyeChickens! On what you said about helping me out. I'd like to ask another question.

I guess that it is not a true breed I'm after. But healthy chickens. Although One rooster and one hen from the hatch really stand out to me. You can take a look at them here: http://www.ttbfarm.com/ozarkproject.php

So my question is if I used them for mating #1 and start inline with their chicks like the chart. Would this be a healthy practice? Or should I start them as mating #2?

Just so you know they share the same father and not sure about mother but both have an easter egger mother.

I'm hoping that the egg production is as good as the easter egger's is. Then hatch some out before they stop laying so I have 10-12 hens laying eggs. Without buying hens every couple of years or so.

My recommendation would be to take the best male from this hatch and put him in a pen with the EE hens (one will be his momma but we don't know which) The pullet would get mated back to her daddy. That will basically put this years chicks as your #3 & 4 breeders next year! Hatch a bunch of chicks this spring and see what kind of layers they are in the fall....that will give you some indication of wether you are on the right track or not. Sometime cross breeding as you have done can decrease egg production and make future offspring more broody but you never know until you try it!

teddy 02-16-2013 05:36 PM

Okay after a lot of reading I think understanding the definition of line breeding help me understand what is being said here. Out of this definition I've come to the conclusion Line breeding is inbreeding with a plan.

Quote:

Breeding closely related animals, based on multiple pedigree crosses to a single exceptional animal. Line breeding, is often defined as a breeding method usually directed toward keeping the offspring closely related to some highly admired ancestor, such as sire to daughter, son to mother, brother to sister, half-brother to half-sister, grandfather to granddaughter, grandson to grandmother, uncle to niece, nephew to aunt, cousin to cousin and so on. Technically line breeding is just a systematic usage of inbreeding.
So you can keep the Genotype tight and carry on traits. The breeding program or system is to prevent or prolong the breed from becoming inbred. So I should be able to let this brother and sister or half brother and sister mate. Then start the systematic program. I can also let the rooster mate with the mother and other easter egger hens. Following the system with those offspring. This is small enough for me to keep records and eat the cull hens eggs, rooster meat. mmm rooster meat.

Thanks for helping me figure this out.


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